Mystery Belt Plate!

[Bell-Two]

We got back out to a few of our fields Monday but the going was a bit slow. Found a new site just did a quick scan to see what may be found. Seems like a newer site since we found some early 20th century items including Diane’s finding a model T valve stem cover. We then went to the site where she found the Seated Dime the other day and I found the only items of note 5 flat buttons. We then moved on to the site where the preceeding Saturday I got a Large Cent and the going was slow there too…at first. I found a squashed thimble…aren’t they always…lol! I also found two large brass whatsits, I like these types of things they have an utilitarian type of beauty about them.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/CTX%2029015/IMG_3543_zpshjbvxy6i.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/CTX%2029015/IMG_3543_zpshjbvxy6i.jpg.html)

We were just finishing up when I got a choppy signal with a small but solid high tone reading 12-44 on CTX and I was thinking Large Cent amongst the ubiquitous iron found in this field, but I had a pleasant surprise it was a belt plate! Hoping for a military plate such as US or OVM (Ohio Volunteer Militia) but a brushing off of the front dispelled those hopes but I could see some type of markings on it. A couple hours of cleaning revealed some self inscribed lettering on it. Now what is it or who is it? Knowing the landowners names I hoped that would give me a clue I could make out a large “A” at the top and several letters following it so I assumed it was a first name. Looking below that I could see four letters but not the first letter of the name. Now looking at it I saw the name of the owner on the other side of the road and the letters I could make out matched a portion of his name. I was puzzled why this should be in the neighbors land. I searched the 1860 Census and found with the landowners records a person living in his household with the same last name of the neighbor across the road…but his first name did not start with an “A” checking the neighbors records on the census and bingo he had a son with a name that started with “A” and the number of letters in his name seemed to align with what I could discern on the plate. This son was 16 years old in 1860. So this is an assumption and probably a wild one at that but I think there is a reasonable chance that the two families were related and that the son may have worked on the farm as well. In any case I am happy with my “Mystery Belt Plate”

Flash update a trip to the main library in my county gives me the answer, yes they are related! The Maiden name of the Mother of the land owner whose parcel we have been hunting is the same as the name of the landowner across the road and the biography of him said he too came from Maine originally!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/CTX%2029015/IMG_3539d_zps8xxikiuk.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/CTX%2029015/IMG_3539d_zps8xxikiuk.jpg.html)


http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/CTX%2029015/IMG_3534_zpshhf3jlhg.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/CTX%2029015/IMG_3534_zpshhf3jlhg.jpg.html)

Here is a portrait of the landowner…an imposing figure to say the least!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/CTX%2029015/IMG_3553_zpsuext9rt5.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/CTX%2029015/IMG_3553_zpsuext9rt5.jpg.html)


https://youtu.be/Oq9dZ7TVGIA

[BTV Digger]

Congrats on the belt plate! I'm sure you've held it under the light in a zillion different directions to try and make out lettering. Definitely looks like some faint marks/etchings are on there, but it's a great find nonetheless.

John

[Bell-Two]

Here is a picture that shows THE at the top also a few more pics and yes your right I have twisted and turned it man ways under the light lol!

[10X]

Nice belt plate Tony. The letters are not uniform at all. To me it looks like a plain belt plate that someone took a small punch or something and hammered his name, or whatever is on there by hand.

[Isaac]

Awesome EARLY plate! Keep us updated on the markings!

[The Rebel]

Sweet find. Try putting a pc of paper on top & then use a crayon to rub on the paper to see if that helps. Also try taking pic's or scanning in black & white as you'll get more detail as well.

[Pennsylvania Treasures]

Killer find on that belt plate!! Looks really early! Keep us updated!

[Digger_O'Dell]

Really nice find and great research! One thing I do in these cases of faint inscriptions like this is to bring it on an LED display such as on a laptop or maybe even a small LED TV or computer screen. Then look at it from a strong angle. This blocks out portions of the LED and gives extreme contrast. Doesn't always work, but might be worth a try.

As for the "whats-its", those are unions likely used for plumbing. Also could have been used for early cars (Model T maybe?) possibly for the lubrication system?

[aloldstuff]

Very nice story on the belt plate. Great research and I feel your pain of trying to figure out the name, but you did it.

[Lodge Scent]

Very cool! Yeah, I don't think I would have wanted to make that dude mad. What a sour puss. :grin:

[Bell-Two]

Killer find on that belt plate!! Looks really early! Keep us updated!

I am very pumped the Belt Plate I dug last week was identified as a model 1808 Shoulder Belt Plate this is the 3.5"x2.5" size that were issued during the war of 1812! It is self inscribed and I am working on figuring out all the words, this was not uncommon for these plain brass plates. Here is a picture of one that was inscribed in a similar manner.

[Pennsylvania Treasures]

I am very pumped the Belt Plate I dug last week was identified as a model 1808 Shoulder Belt Plate this is the 3.5"x2.5" size that were issued during the war of 1812! It is self inscribed and I am working on figuring out all the words, this was not uncommon for these plain brass plates. Here is a picture of one that was inscribed in a similar manner.

Wow! That's freaking awesome! Congrats on a Fantastic Find!

[GA1dad]

Outstanding!!!

[del]

Tony its a great piece but i'm not so sure on it being a shoulder belt plate after all they sit more upright and the letters and words would be like the one you pictured . Yours from the pictures that i see , the letters and words are more along the length which suggest it would have been used more like a traditional belt buckle . I wish the letters and words were more readable because that is the key to its history and accurate age , i hope you can decipher them soon as it would only add more rich history and value to this fine buckle .

note: while they do list this plate as an 1808 "patterned" type it was also given to 1820's -1833 militias as well according to the American Military belt plates book.

Dan

[Bell-Two]

While I would never argue with you Dan for your knowledge is greater than mine this is why I thought that this was a Shoulder Belt Plate. The size and style of design on the back is similar to the examples I have seen on the net as being described as the Model 1808 here are some of the examples I saw identified as such.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/Belt%20Plate/Shoulder%20Plate_zpsjmsa1que.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/Belt%20Plate/Shoulder%20Plate_zpsjmsa1que.jpg.html)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/Belt%20Plate/Shoulder%20Plate%20back_zpsrlr8xdbi.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/Belt%20Plate/Shoulder%20Plate%20back_zpsrlr8xdbi.jpg.html)

REGULATION 1808 PATTERN SHOULDER BELT PLATE, cast brass, integral belt hooks, flat brass washers peened onto studs, marker inscription on reverse indicates that this was found at one of Jackson's campsites, Mobile, AL. First quarter 19th century. 2 1/2" x 3 1/2".
Provenance: D. Coiner Rosen Estate Collection, New Market, VA


http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/Belt%20Plate/shoulder%20belt%20plate_zpsxgtrm8lk.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/Belt%20Plate/shoulder%20belt%20plate_zpsxgtrm8lk.jpg.html)

13-09-74 ... Model 1808 Shoulder Belt Plate: Oval US Pattern 1808 shoulder belt plate for the bayonet belt. These cast brass oval plates were introduced with the US 1808 pattern accoutrements and remained regulation in the regular army until the introduction of the 1819 pattern that utilized a rolled brass plate with an embossed “US.” They were kept in store even after that, however, and issued for many years to various state forces. The soldier carried his cartridge box on a fixed shoulder belt crossing from the left shoulder to his right side, and his bayonet in a scabbard suspended from an adjustable belt running from his right shoulder to his left hip.
This plate is one of a group recovered at Sacket’s Harbor, NY twenty or more years ago. Sacket’s Harbor was the site of a battle in the War of 1812 and was an army depot for years thereafter. Military belt plates and buttons have been recovered from both land and water excavations in the area over the years. This seems to be one of the water finds. Generally well preserved though with some crustiness and one slight corrosion dimple on the face, more uneven surface to the back, with some form of preservative applied to the back. The fastening hook is in place and the two upright studs are present, but they lack the round washers which were originally affixed. This is one of the smaller pattern, measuring about 2.1 by 3.1 inches. Likely made 1815-1820. It was after 1819 when the bayonet belt was reduced in width, and these slightly smaller versions may be for that belt. A great early relic ... $295.00 SOLD


Another example offered by a dealer, to me it appears the back is identical.
DUG WAR 1812 CA 1808 -1819 SHOULDER / WAIST BELT PLATE HAS INTEGRAL BELT HOOK AND ROUND BRASS WASHERS PEENED ONTO STUDS 82MM X 59MM SIMILAR PLATE 76 IN O'DONNELL & CAMPBELL BOOK ,AMERICAN MILITARY BELT PLATES.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/Belt%20Plate/Plate%20e_zps1gi4jwlb.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/Belt%20Plate/Plate%20e_zps1gi4jwlb.jpg.html)


http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/Belt%20Plate/Roundabout_zpsqfiv980i.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/Belt%20Plate/Roundabout_zpsqfiv980i.jpg.html)

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t184/Tony_Mantia/Belt%20Plate/Uniform%2002a_zpsp6umbqii.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Mantia/media/Belt%20Plate/Uniform%2002a_zpsp6umbqii.jpg.html)

As can be seen on these pictures of the uniform the buckle is on an angle so whether engraving or incising is done straight up on plate or across it will still be seen at an angle. It would then depend on what the person wanted to say on the buckle in my buckle it seems as quite a bit was incised so it is logical to do it across the wide part of the buckle so to allow for more room.

So this is why I believed that this is the model 1808. No matter if I am wrong it is a find I treasure.

[del]

I agree Tony it does look like an 1808 patterned shoulder belt plate , meaning this was first introduced in 1808 and has been in use from then to about the 1830's . By the 1820 it was being phased out or replaced of regulation uniforms and being picked up and used by local Militias . I'm not saying you are wrong , i'm saying the way the words or letters look on yours it wasn't actually used as a shoulder or breast plate but more like a regular type of waist belt which suggest it was either a "hand me down" and reused as a waist belt buckle this was done a lot especially for Southern Confederate soldiers who weren't as well equipped as the Northern federal troops . Sorry for the confusion that I caused .

Dan

[chief5709]

:notworthy: incredible find Tony! I hope you can identify the inscription!

[Digger_O'Dell]

Great research, congrats!

[Bell-Two]

No problem Dan as we discussed in messages. Folks I always turn to Dan for help and he has been a great source of help to me and so many others. I posted that response just to show how I came to my conclusion whether rightly or wrongly. I try to research stuff to verify what it is I have found but I like all of us let our excitement get in the way of our accuracy at times! :lol: I am posting some pictures again in a format that if anyone wants to download them they can if they have any photo editing software that may help bring out what may be on the plate. I thank everyone for their help and my fondest hope is the truth about this find emerges: "Sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes it feels real good (Henry Rollins)"

[Full Metal Digger]

I'm not sure but I think it says "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine!" All kidding aside I think this is an amazing find and like all the others on here I can't wait for you to decipher it!

[OxShoeDrew]

I'm not sure but I think it says "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine!" :lol:
That is a special find, Tony, have you tried tracing paper as others suggested?
:congrats:

[Bell-Two]

:lol:
That is a special find, Tony, have you tried tracing paper as others suggested?
:congrats:

yesi tried it but I probably need an even thinner paper than I had, Dan suggested Charcoal dust and I need to get some of that I tried talcum powder but really didn't help. I am tempted to tumble it for about 15 minutes using something like walnut shells that is not too abrasive.

[MangoAve]

Yeah. I did see this listed not only as a shoulder plate, but as well a belt plate, with the equivalent metric measurements of 89mm x 62mm. Most seem to be plain. The top middle almost looks like it says "THE" with right below it "FEAR". The far left of the pic looks like a large "A", which Idk how it fits in with the rest. And the bottom of the words, which is almost the middle of the buckle, looks like it says, starting with a crude "N", NTH8 ....:thinkingabout::dontknow::dontknow:

[10X]

yesi tried it but I probably need an even thinner paper than I had, Dan suggested Charcoal dust and I need to get some of that I tried talcum powder but really didn't help. I am tempted to tumble it for about 15 minutes using something like walnut shells that is not too abrasive.

Tony, I wouldn't try anything that might make it any worse than it is. You've got all the time in the world to try and figure out what it says. You might try to use aluminum foil over it and rub with a pencil eraser or something to see if you can get a better image of it.