Old silver

[don in ny]

Posted this first in coinshooting by mistake. Got a call from a buddy who got permission to hunt some private property. House was built in 1786 so hopes were high. Property was sold a few years ago for $7,650,000. Evidently a lot of the yard has been moved around and we didn't find much in the areas we were detecting, but I did come up with a nice old silver spoon. Appears to be early 1800's. Anyone good with hallmarks?

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[Robbie]

This topic was brought up last week about hallmarks. Key in silver spoon in the search box.

[Jyes]

Excellent spoon find!! The drooped eagle mark, makes me think French, more than British or American, but have not found it on the website for a match. Sooo many Hallmarks!! Don

[Robbie]

This topic was brought up last week about hallmarks. Key in silver spoon in the search box. Go to park hunt started by Giant 056. There`s a link you can go to.

[The Rebel]

Awesome looking silver spoon!

[Jyes]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/188792-19th-century-coin-silver-spoon-unknown-hallmark.html Identical spoon found in Mass by a fellow I know, do not see the answer on this posting...

Added: going by the one reply on Neil's post, this is a possibility: http://www.925-1000.com/ax_TifftWhiting.html

Don

[don in ny]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/188792-19th-century-coin-silver-spoon-unknown-hallmark.html Identical spoon found in Mass by a fellow I know, do not see the answer on this posting...

Added: going by the one reply on Neil's post, this is a possibility: http://www.925-1000.com/ax_TifftWhiting.html

Don

Thanks Jyes. I had found this post with the link to the hallmark site, but it's not quite the same. Only similarity is the arm and hammer, which isn't exactly the same as mine. The hammer is much higher from the arm than on my piece. Also, there are no initials in the hallmark. Possibly from the same area before Tift & Whiting joined forces. Certainly think it's American. It is interesting that one was found by a fellow member here with the EXACT same hallmarks.

[Isaac]

That's gotta be old for sure, great save!

[Neil in West Jersey]

I found the same exact one as your's a few years back, in Cape Cod MA. I really didn't spend much time researching it, but you sparked my interest a bit. I found a very similar eagle on another unidentified silver spoon pictured), which the possibility of Whitfield Cowles of East Granby CT was mentioned. This is a longshot, but may make sense for two reasons; the first being the proximity being halfway between our finds, the second being the area of East Granby is nicknamed "Spoonville". Further research is necessary!

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[Bell-Two]

That is an awesome spoon. I never have had much luck on finding hallmarks though good luck on your search.

[aloldstuff]

Fantastic find and its not even bent....:lol: . Whatever the hallmarks are that spoon is early. Nice price on the piece of property.

[OxShoeDrew]

Don, that's beautiful! Congrats!

[del]

Don I wish I was better on my Silver hallmarks knowledge , its a "stand-out" piece in any display sir . :thumbsup02:

[Neil in West Jersey]

Here is the exact one I found a few years back on Cape Cod.
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[don in ny]

No doubt in my mind they were made at the same time. Not only same hallmarks, same EXACT style.

[Lodge Scent]

That is a beauty. Congrats.

[Neil in West Jersey]

No doubt in my mind they were made at the same time. Not only same hallmarks, same EXACT style.

It was a common design, but same period for sure. I found the exact same design made by a Philadelphia silversmith named James Watts.

If they had the same monogram it would be freaky!

[Digger Don]

Great recovery on the spoon. I've found a few, but never Silver and Never in that great of shape. Congrats

[don in ny]

It was a common design, but same period for sure. I found the exact same design made by a Philadelphia silversmith named James Watts.

If they had the same monogram it would be freaky!

What's different about this spoon than most that I've seen from the period is the handle end of the spoon. The design element is on the bottom of the handle where all the others I've see have it on the top. Your thoughts? I also got out my old copy of Marks of American Silversmiths and still couldn't find the exact hallmarks although I did find one with an arm & hammer.

[Jyes]

While doing the research to no avail I do think we all need to call the marks by their proper name Makers Mark, not Hallmarks, I stand guilty as do most of the rest of us. ALL American made silver are marked not with Hallmarks, but Maker's Marks, Hallmarks are a British only thing. :) Don

[don in ny]

You are absolutely correct Jyes. In the future I'll try and post correctly. I've found 5 pieces of silverware as well as a sterling knee buckle c.1770-1790 so far this year and have referred to the hallmarks in posts when they are as you correctly say, makers marks.

[Jyes]

Hard for us all to change what we have been saying probably for years, similar to using the term Reale, when there is no Reale! :)

[Tony Two-Cent]

Hard for us all to change what we have been saying probably for years, similar to using the term Reale, when there is no Reale! :)

You're exactly right! In fact, I've been tempted to start a thread about that exact topic but I didn't want to come across as a pedantic know-it-all. :embarrassed: :lol:

It's either Real (singular) i.e. Half Real, One Real

or Reales (plural) i.e. 2 Reales, 4 Reales, 8 Reales

There is no such thing as a "Reale". :shame:

[Jyes]

I have posted exactly that on other forums and on FB and some have seen the light but I guess it is because they pronounce it Reale, that then thin that is the proper spelling. Even some technical writers have slipped up on this one. :)

Now back to trying to find the maker for Don and Neil's spoon. I do feel the age might be more 1830ish now, just based on similar spoons seen while researching that have same style, but I would not be surprised if a tad older, but factual proof of that is needed. Lack of reference books in my library really hurts the research. :)
Don

[don in ny]

It fits the style of 1820. Same design of the base of the handle with a pointed spoon bowl.

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[Jyes]

Don, that fits my 1830ish estimate or a tad older rather well, I based it on seeing Arm & Hammer and eagle marks that are the same for the most part and those spoons that had makers that were on-line and appear around 1830+ period for using those marks. Maybe we will get lucky, I still think a Mass Silversmith is most likely.. Don

[don in ny]

Here's the 2 spoons I found this year that appear to be from around the same time period. The one on the top is the one I recently found at a site where the house was built in 1786 and the one on the bottom I found a few months ago at a house that was built prior to 1757. Interesting on has the design on the top of the spoon and one on the bottom.
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[del]

Don here is another one on ebay but with very limited info , they suspect its from a New York silver smith.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/19th-Century-Coin-Silver-SALT-SPOON-w-mystery-marks-ARM-HAMMER-EAGLE-BUST-/161440739170?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item25969e2f62
















































(http://www.ebay.com/itm/19th-Century-Coin-Silver-SALT-SPOON-w-mystery-marks-ARM-HAMMER-EAGLE-BUST-/161440739170?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item25969e2f62)

[del]

Don this link is far more interesting look at page 7.

http://www.silversocietyofcanada.ca/sites/default/files/freeman.pdf

[don in ny]

I think you nailed it with that last one Del. Thanks. Makes sense too as Poughkeepsie is only 30-40 miles from where I found it.

[del]

Don , its these darn pseudo- maker marks , sometimes they mean or stand for something and sometimes I've read they were put on to fool people thinking they were actual British hallmarks . so the are hard to nail down but glad i could help.

Dan

[Neil in West Jersey]

Nice research on that one Dan! Don's find wasn't far from its origin, but the one I found made its way more than 100 miles where it was lost or buried.

[Jyes]

Another note of interest, when I posted a couple years back a coin silver initialed spoon I found (J Shoemaker of Phila) I was told that the three initials on the spoon are not the initials of the owner so to speak, but the first letter of the SURNAME, HUSBAND & WIFE. Never verified that but I believe it was Crusader from TNet who gave that information. Don

Did some googling of monogrammed coin silver spoons and saw that the three initials were during Victorian times used several different ways, did not find how they were for the period we are looking at (very late 1700s up to early mid 1800s).....

[Jyes]

OK, I wrote to the lady who wrote the article about Adam Henderson and got a very nice reply back from her... The spoon evidently was NOT made by A Henderson. The reason I inquired her was because of no name on the spoon where the example in her article had A Henderson on it. So I thought perhaps it was the mark of his former employer, or that at least that was an indication it was an older spoon due to no name, but evidently not the case. Here is her reply: Thank you for your email inquiry as a result of reading my article about Adam Henderson.Did you read article online at Silver Society of Canada website?
A fun coincidence that your friends found 2 similarly marked spoons varied places such as NY State and on Cape Cod!
Those two spoons have 3 pseudo-hallmarks (eagle-arm & hammer- bust) which probably were used by some coin silver maker in Orange County, NY (Newburgh or Middletown), on the opposite side (SW) of the Hudson River from Poughkeepsie.
That unidentified maker is said to be after 1830 in John R. McGrew's book, Manufacturing Marks on American Coin Silver.
This is the considered thinking of other silver historians as well.
Why no one knows for sure - Orange County 19th C. manufacturing census records lost in fire. Thus, only conjecture as to maker who used those marks.
The 3 pseudos were probably not the mark of Adam Henderson.
Certainly, they are not the mark of George Halliwell.
Since your 2 pseudo marks are on spoons that date from Adam Henderson's 1840's - 1850's period; we can date your spoons to mid-19th C.
They are not of a very early date.
In the top spoon photo you sent me - I cannot tell if it is dirt or a name on the stem along with the 3 pseudos. Name?
In my article, I was concentrating solely on marks used by Adam Henderson - not the specialized study of pseudo-hallmarks.
That is a whole other discussion.
I enjoyed hearing from you, Kay Olson Freeman

[del]

so this begs the question ... why would a maker use the same or very similar marks that was already used by another maker ?? to capitalize on someone else's well established trade or "renown quality or craftsmanship" or could the pseudo marks have been part of a localized silversmith "guild" that was used by a few silversmiths until they were very well established ??

[Jyes]

That is one of the reasons I thought that perhaps the silversmith that A Henderson worked for as an apprentice George Halliwell, that it was his mark that Adam continued using, but guess not. It is interesting that she said it is not A Henderson spoons... Just not enough knowledge by me to give any further opinions... I basically thought since it did not have his name, but his makers marks that perhaps it was an earlier spoon marking he did, but again, guess not.

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

looks colonial possibly? if not early 1800's based on the script is my guess.beautiful!

[del]

looks colonial possibly? if not early 1800's based on the script is my guess.beautiful!


Yeah , Don how about a nice close look at that hand tooled monogram

[Jyes]

A closeup of both Neil's and Don's would be nice, just looking at existing photos the two spoons seemed to have been done by the same individual, but as far as dating by the script, I think not appropriate on this type of spoon to say colonial or even late 1700s. The Fiddle style like the ones posted seem to fit the ones mentioned on a few websites as 1820ish and beyond. I have a different style coin silver one that dates 1790-1810 based on the name J SHOEMAKER, since he was a silversmith in Philly during that time frame and the style matches the dating on this website, which has the Fiddle type as 1820 era. http://www.pewterbank.com/Spoons_..articles..13.pdf Don H

[don in ny]

Here's a scan of the monogram
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[Jyes]

Don, not an expert at handwriting, so I cannot say the same individual did the monogram on the two spoons, one of yours and the one Kay had in her article. But the similarities of the lettering, how in general they were done seem to me that it was done by the same individual. Opinions welcomed. Of course I sure would never tell a woman (Kay) she is wrong on this one, but she sure could be.

Don H

[del]

Don , while somewhat similar they look noticeably different to me . It was a popular style of writing with the large scripted lettering , I was fortunate enough to find a coin silver spoon myself it also has that "looked" monogram letters but it had a very easily to id makers mark. while mine is a "fiddle" style it looks a bit older then the types shown above .

Joha Corbett http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~silversmiths/makers/silversmiths/83457.htm

[don in ny]

Don, not an expert at handwriting, so I cannot say the same individual did the monogram on the two spoons, one of yours and the one Kay had in her article. But the similarities of the lettering, how in general they were done seem to me that it was done by the same individual. Opinions welcomed. Of course I sure would never tell a woman (Kay) she is wrong on this one, but she sure could be.

Don H

I agree on the similarity. I sent Kay an email with photos and I'll see if I hear back.

[Jyes]

I agree on the similarity. I sent Kay an email with photos and I'll see if I hear back. I was just about to reply to Del about the slight differences and ask if he thinks all our handwriting stays the same over the years, I know my signature now is nowhere near what it was 20 years ago. :) I'm just bugged that the maker's name is not on yours or Neil's spoon, thus doubt about who was the silversmith for sure, since Henderson seemed to use it on his spoons, even before he was solo with his work. So it may be the "unknown" silversmith that Kay mentions, again do not have any of books on the subject so at the whims of googling. Don H

[don in ny]

Some silverware makers sold their goods to others who sold it in their shops. The makers marks would represent the manufacturer and the name stamp would be who sold it. I think this is frequently the case when you have a name as well as maker's marks.